Survival of Cantonese People & Language ---- a debate in ChinaHistroyForum

The original url: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=16188&st=0  Survival of Cantonese People & Language

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Andy Lau View Member Profile	Feb 11 2007, 12:50 AM Post #1
State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 688 Joined: 14-September 06 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 4,115 Main Interest in CHF: Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples Specialisation/Expertise: Southern Chinese Dialects and People	Is the survival of Cantonese people and the language possible? Personally, I really don't know..lol Well the only countries or cities that teach Cantonese is Hong Kong, Macao and some overseas chinese communities(ie US, Canada, UK, Australia, Malaysia, etc). Guangdong province, the birth of the Cantonese(plus the non-cantonese: Guangdong Hakka and Teo Chiu) language, culture and people ...doesn't even teach it anymore(i don't know since when?! does anyone know?). In addition, many of the Chinese who live overseas will eventually loose their language and Chinese(Cantonese) will die out. Hong Kong and Macao seems to be the only places that teach & practice cantonese language & culture..and there are even many westerners who live there who can speak Standard Cantonese : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uaNpyX29fo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs5CWBXm-JA...ted&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rst3xh3h_1Y...ted&search= Solutions: for some people, it's Hong Kong independance. This post has been edited by Andy Lau: Feb 11 2007, 12:57 AM

somechineseperso... somechineseperson View Member Profile	Feb 11 2007, 04:18 PM Post #2
Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 1,450 Joined: 18-January 05 Member No.: 398 Main Interest in CHF: Chinese Philosophy Specialisation/Expertise: Chinese Philosophy, Christianity	No one is going to change the policy to officially teach Cantonese in Hong Kong. Personally, I'd say there are greater things to worry about at this point (not to say Cantonese is not important). Cantonese is still a sub-variant of Han language and culture in general. We need to have a way to preserve the essence of Han language and culture even among overseas Hanren no matter how many generations they have lived outside China. I mean Han language and culture in a more general sense, transcending local variations. I actually think Religion is a good vehicle for the preservation of language and culture. The Muslims, because of their religion, never lose their language and culture no matter where they go for example. I think sometimes people exaggerate the difference between Cantonese and Mandarin. The truth is, linguistically speaking northern and southern Han dialects are still far closer to each other than each of them is to non-Han languages in the north and the south respectively.

somechineseperso... somechineseperson View Member Profile	Feb 11 2007, 04:20 PM Post #3
Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 1,450 Joined: 18-January 05 Member No.: 398 Main Interest in CHF: Chinese Philosophy Specialisation/Expertise: Chinese Philosophy, Christianity	Hong Kong independence is certainly not the way to go in my opinion. The biggest threat to Cantonese language and culture does not come from mainland China, but from the waves of Western globalisation. Chinese people now more than ever need to unite more in the cultural sense.

Andy Lau View Member Profile	Feb 11 2007, 05:52 PM Post #4
State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 688 Joined: 14-September 06 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 4,115 Main Interest in CHF: Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples Specialisation/Expertise: Southern Chinese Dialects and People	QUOTE(somechineseperson @ Feb 11 2007, 05:20 PM) [snapback]4875492[/snapback] Hong Kong independence is certainly not the way to go in my opinion. The biggest threat to Cantonese language and culture does not come from mainland China, but from the waves of Western globalisation. Chinese people now more than ever need to unite more in the cultural sense. I agree w/ unity..but preservation of local variants is also essential too. Ok..Cantonese won't die out in Guangdong...cuz of Hk. But how about Shanghainese..the gov't is prohibiting the usage of it on television and radio?

YuenKamSiu View Member Profile	Feb 11 2007, 07:11 PM Post #5
General of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 109 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 5,101	Cantonese will most likely never die out but what about Taishanese or Teochew? Aren't these dialects faced with an even greater dilemna?

Andy Lau View Member Profile	Feb 11 2007, 08:07 PM Post #6
State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 688 Joined: 14-September 06 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 4,115 Main Interest in CHF: Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples Specialisation/Expertise: Southern Chinese Dialects and People	QUOTE(YuenKamSiu @ Feb 11 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]4875504[/snapback] Cantonese will most likely never die out but what about Taishanese or Teochew? Aren't these dialects faced with an even greater dilemna? Well as a Taishanese person/speaker, i know it is going to die(even other cantonese dialects, such as Zhongshan hua, Shunde hua, etc) in a couple of centuries from now, to be replaced by Standard Cantonese(Guangzhou or Hong Kong variant) or maybe Mandarin. Since many Taishanese can understand Standard Cantonese quite well, we don't see the Standard alien. Taishanese is a dialect of Cantonese...so it's not really a threat. I am not Teochew..so i can't say anything on their behalf. The protection of a Standard Local dialect (ie: Shanghainese would be the representaion of Standard Wu) is essential, as Mandarin is to the Northern people above the Yangtze River. If Sun Yat Sen made Standard Cantonese the official language of China(which was very possible..since more than half of the MP's were Cantonese), the people from the far North would be complaining like i am(including Hokkien and Hakka speakers in Taiwan) presently. This post has been edited by Andy Lau: Feb 11 2007, 08:16 PM

Andy Lau View Member Profile	Feb 12 2007, 12:43 AM Post #7
State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 688 Joined: 14-September 06 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 4,115 Main Interest in CHF: Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples Specialisation/Expertise: Southern Chinese Dialects and People	What i don't understand is why doesn't the PRC Gov't in Peking want to change the official language policy in Hong Kong; where Cantonese and English are the official language only(not mandarin)? and where in the rest of China...mandarin is a must. This post has been edited by Andy Lau: Feb 12 2007, 12:47 AM

Richard Lim View Member Profile	Feb 12 2007, 07:34 AM Post #8
State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎) Group: Moderator Posts: 592 Joined: 27-December 06 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 5,591 Main Interest in CHF: Chinese History	QUOTE(Andy Lau @ Feb 12 2007, 01:43 AM) [snapback]4875542[/snapback] What i don't understand is why doesn't the PRC Gov't in Peking want to change the official language policy in Hong Kong; where Cantonese and English are the official language only(not mandarin)? and where in the rest of China...mandarin is a must. H Andy, Contrary to of media hype, the PRC government in Peking does not administer HK; the HK SAR government does and is supposed to do so until 2047. The move to have more mandarin education in HK was largely a pragmatic (also admittedly ideological) move initiated by local HK people in recent years. It has been premised on the growing importance of mainland China in the region and in the world. I know of no evidence of overt imposition from Peking nor does anyone think that this would be forthcoming in the short to medium term. Best, Richard -------------------- 三人行，必有我� 正心、修身、�家、治�、平天下

Publius View Member Profile	Feb 12 2007, 09:30 AM Post #9
Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉) Group: Admin Posts: 1,273 Joined: 28-August 06 From: Rockford, MI Member No.: 3,869 Main Interest in CHF: Chinese History Specialisation/Expertise: General Chinese History and Culture	In a sense, lesser known languages will become less and less used because other languages are more practical for communication. It's not because one language is "better" than another language, but one is more understood by a wider audience and, hence, is more effective. Progressing science/technology and an ever-growing global community increase the value of English and Hanyu Chinese for economic, political, and not to mention plain practical purposes, eg a German visits France and speaks to a Frenchman in English. There is a reason why CHF is in English... Hopefully, those who speak lesser known languages will continue to use them and retain their cultural heritage, but language evolution is against them. -------------------- Avatar compliments of Lord Yoda Please nominate your favourite threads on the "Forum Favourites" thread.

Ryz05 View Member Profile	Feb 12 2007, 11:18 PM Post #10
General of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 118 Joined: 9-April 05 Member No.: 753	Unless more and more cantonese speakers marry mandarin speakers and producing only mandarin speaking children, then cantonese will die out. However, as there are so many television programs and songs in cantonese, the dialect will last for a long time. The cultural prevalence of cantonese promotes the dialect in a sense.

Andy Lau View Member Profile	Feb 13 2007, 12:07 AM Post #11
State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 688 Joined: 14-September 06 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 4,115 Main Interest in CHF: Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples Specialisation/Expertise: Southern Chinese Dialects and People	actually..it depends on where the couple decides to live. If a cantonese speaker marries a mandarin speaker and lives in HK, Macao or Guangdong...most likely the child will speak cantonese at home and w/ frds. If they live in Taiwan or somewhere else in the mainland besides Guangdong province +hk + macao, mostly likely the child will speak Mandarin at home + outside. If overseas..most likely Cantonese or both. I have an uncle who went to Beijing for his studies(University) and married a beijinger and came to Montreal(in the 70's) and surprisingly she can speak Taishanese very well(with abit of an accent)..lol This post has been edited by Andy Lau: Feb 13 2007, 12:10 AM

Ryz05 View Member Profile	Feb 13 2007, 12:10 AM Post #12
General of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 118 Joined: 9-April 05 Member No.: 753	QUOTE(Andy Lau @ Feb 13 2007, 01:07 AM) [snapback]4875728[/snapback] actually..it depends on where the couple decides to live. If a cantonese marries a mandarin person and lives in HK, Macao or Guangdong...most likely the child will speak cantonese at home and w/ frds. If they live in Taiwan or somewhere else in the mainland besides Guangdong province +hk + macao, mostly likely the child will speak Mandarin at home + outside. If overseas..most likely Cantonese or both. I have an uncle who went to Beijing for his studies(University) and married a beijinger and came to Montreal(in the 70's) and surprisingly she can speak Taishanese very well(with abit of an accent)..lol So as long as the child speaks cantonese, the dialect will survive. Nothing to worry about, especially with the advent of television and cantonese pop.

Andy Lau View Member Profile	Feb 13 2007, 12:12 AM Post #13
State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 688 Joined: 14-September 06 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 4,115 Main Interest in CHF: Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples Specialisation/Expertise: Southern Chinese Dialects and People	but i don't know what's the case in Guangdong actually..there's like over 30 million migrant workers residing in Guangdong from outside Guangdong who speak mandarin. Look at Shenzhen..the majority r non-locals... What'S going to happen when they form the majority in GZ. This post has been edited by Andy Lau: Feb 13 2007, 12:13 AM

Ryz05 View Member Profile	Feb 13 2007, 12:17 AM Post #14
General of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 118 Joined: 9-April 05 Member No.: 753	QUOTE(Andy Lau @ Feb 13 2007, 01:12 AM) [snapback]4875730[/snapback] but i don't know what's the case in Guangdong actually..there's like over 30 million migrant workers residing in Guangdong from outside Guangdong who speak mandarin. Look at Shenzhen..the majority r non-locals... What'S going to happen when they form the majority in GZ. I don't believe most migrant workers in Guangdong speak mandarin. It is more likely that they came from the surrounding regions, the rural areas outside Guangdong. Also, standard mandarin is mostly spoken in Beijing and surrounding areas, which are too far from Guangdong.

somechineseperso... somechineseperson View Member Profile

Feb 13 2007, 04:44 PM Post #15

Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉) Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai) Posts: 1,450 Joined: 18-January 05 Member No.: 398 Main Interest in CHF: Chinese Philosophy Specialisation/Expertise: Chinese Philosophy, Christianity

QUOTE(Publius @ Feb 12 2007, 03:30 PM) [snapback]4875595[/snapback] In a sense, lesser known languages will become less and less used because other languages are more practical for communication. It's not because one language is "better" than another language, but one is more understood by a wider audience and, hence, is more effective. Progressing science/technology and an ever-growing global community increase the value of English and Hanyu Chinese for economic, political, and not to mention plain practical purposes, eg a German visits France and speaks to a Frenchman in English. There is a reason why CHF is in English... Hopefully, those who speak lesser known languages will continue to use them and retain their cultural heritage, but language evolution is against them. It's not so simple. I know in Western philosophy you like to have a simplistic linear view of everything, as if evolution is always "just in one direction" (nevermind what that actually means), but the way of the universe tends to be quasi-cyclic, "long united, it will divide, long divided, it will unite". The "end of history" will never ever come. I'm sorry to say this, but I think this view is literally delusional. The Americans may in their arrogance think their political and cultural institutions will forever rule the world for an eternity, but one day they will fall too, just like every great empire fell before them.